Re: MD Lila's Child

Date: Fri Aug 08 2003 - 15:31:58 BST

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    Hi Squonk,

    > squonk: Western world view is dominated by social patterns of value.
    > Subjects and Objects in the social level of values is largely a value of
    > beating the opposition. Thus, subjects and objects are not intellectual
    > in their origin.

    I think you're on to something. One of the first divisions we can infer
    from the survival needs of early man is friend/enemy, a social level
    value. It isn't too much of a jump from that to me/you, subject/object,
    mind/matter. (Enemies are often treated as inhuman, like dirt.) But, I
    think you limit your insight too much by attributing it solely to the
    Western worldview. Eastern methods of torture are diabolic.

    squonk: I agree. Humans around the world can be a nasty lot.

    > squonk: Subjects and objects are manifold in their patterns and are
    > static. They are artistic creations of the intellect. We don't need
    > them, and science doesn't want them. They are a genetic fault.

    We agree on a lot, Squonk. But here I must question your "artistic
    creations of intellect" that you repeat in the following passage:

    > squonk: There are no subjects and objects in the MoQ. There are no
    > subjects and objects as such in quantum mechanics. Many readers of Lila
    > have never valued the definition of intellect described here as
    > Q-intellect. Intellect produces many wonderful artistic creations, and
    > one has been subjects and objects - which have social and biological
    > roots. Intellect has created a myth of a supersensible reality called
    > truth, which science values, but such a myth involves no subjects or
    > objects.

    Again you claim that intellect produces "many wonderful artistic
    creations," granting to intellect creative powers that Pirsig reserves
    for Dynamic Quality, "the life force." Intellect is mostly hidebound in
    static patterns. Its "repertoire" of meaningful patterns, while
    numerous, is necessarily common or we wouldn't be able to understand
    one another. There's a certain amount of inventiveness involved in
    speaking extemporaneously as we combine word patterns on the fly in
    ordinary conversation. But I wouldn't go so far as to call everyday
    talking or thinking "artistic." Rarely do we speak or write in ways one
    would compare to a Shakespearean sonnet.

    squonk: I see your point. However, a teacher must be creative in his/her
    communication in order to convey enthusiasm and delight in the topic. All the best
    teachers i ever had the luck to be taught by would quite happily fly off the
    main thread and introduce all sorts of apparently unrelated stuff, only to
    have it all tie together at the end. It's a real pleasure to see it in action -
    as it was spontaneous and free flowing.
    This is important Platt, as i feel sure you can appreciate - for it would
    appear that the whole was somehow 'felt' and structured by the teacher before
    delivery. This is like the artist who intuits the whole before execution. I can't
    explain it, but it's Dynamic.
    Peter Cook, the British satirist and comedian could do this very well
    apparently - Cook could just begin a long story from scratch and quip for minutes on
    end before tying everything together in a delightfully funny punch line. I
    feel the relationship between the static repertoire and DQ is a key.

    So, artistic creation doesn't come from intellect but from that sense
    within each of us that responds to the creative force of DQ. It's known
    to the us as a sudden flash of insight, the light bulb going off, the
    surprising connection we make between two or three heretofore unrelated

    That the DQ sense is more highly developed in some than in others is
    only too evident. I can count on one hand the truly great creative
    geniuses in any field. But, the sense is inborn in everyone. Children
    exhibit it almost every day up until about the third or fourth grade
    when they begin to get smothered with static intellectual patterns we
    insist they learn in order to become good socialized tax-paying
    citizens. We should be teaching them, instead, to be attuned to DQ and
    to grab it whenever it appears. We should be teaching them aesthetics.
    That I'm sure you'll agree with. :-)


    squonk: Yes i do agree, absolutely. And i am delighted to here you saying
    Creativity is often killed stone dead by our educational institutions. We
    train people and don't educate them enough - education involves thinking and
    being creative outside of static expectations - a topic covered by Anthony McWatt
    in a recent essay upon the misuse of the term Quality in education.
    (I am in the process of some mature education, and some of it has been truly
    awful - lacking any sense of aesthetic and totally soul destroying - and i
    mean the depth that has made just want to walk out and never go back. Happily,
    most of my experience has been very good.)

    All the best,

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