Re: MD expectation

From: Steve Peterson (
Date: Tue Aug 12 2003 - 16:05:38 BST

  • Next message: Platt Holden: "RE: MD myths and symbols"

    Hi Johnny,

    When you think about "expectation," do you think of different types as in
    the four static levels? I tend to read it "expectation" as what is expected
    by society, as way of describing social patterns of value.


    >> Hi Johnny Moral,
    >> You said:
    >>> Anything that happens, happens because, at the moment of it
    >>> happening, we expect it.
    >>> We may not have expected it 15 seconds prior, but our
    >>>> expectations change as our experiences change. Expectation doesn't
    >> come
    >>>> from us, it comes from outside us.
    >> How long is the necessary time lag between the expectation and the
    >> experience?
    > At the moment reality hits, the moment that feels like now, is exactly what
    > we expect now to be. A few moments prior to that, our expectations are
    > pretty close to reality, but we still could be wrong. I described it to
    > Platt as like a football game. Before the game, you expect Green Bay to
    > win. It is morally right that Green Bay would win, according to your
    > perceptions of reality. Even up till the final play of the game, you don't
    > expect Favre to throw an interception and have it be run back for a TD, but
    > he does. Favre didn't expect it either, but as he saw the ball deflect off
    > the linebacker's helmut his expectations changed. At that point, you see it
    > too, and it becomes expected that Detroit will win, and that indeed is the
    > reality that you experience, along with, as expected, the rest of the
    > country. The reason expectations change is because we have a very strong
    > expectation that you and I will experience the same outcome, along with
    > Brett Favre and the other players. But Brett saw before anyone, he knew
    > that he threw it a little low, and since it's his arm, his expectation
    > counts a lot more than mine does, watching the game on athe east coast (this
    > is a strong expectation, that I do not control the outcome of the game by
    > shouting at the television). So the rest of us will have to have our
    > expectations changed before reality strikes to match Brett's. Changing
    > expectations in consciousness to match the emerging shared reality is the
    > role of Dynamic Quality.
    >> Who is doing the expecting?
    > The same "who" who does the experiencing. Everyone does their share, and
    > the shared expectations fill in the blanks. The shared expectations are key
    > - they are the enduring static patterns that we hold to be most certain -
    > and one of them is the expectation that there is one reality that we all
    > share, Detroit won the game. If we find out we were wrong about
    > experience, like say we read Green Bay won the game the next day, we expect
    > an explanation, and it turns out that I was actually watching a taped game
    > on ESPN Classic, and not the game at all.
    > When we see something happen unexpectedly, like say we see a stationary
    > object suddenly begin to move, what is happening is other people's
    > expectations, including the enduring shared expectations that things will
    > make sense in the future and to the past, have caused the object to move.
    > Stronger than our expectatoin that the object will not move is the
    > expectation that there is a reason for everything, and it will make sense
    > when we investigate and correllate it to other people's experiences So if
    > other people had strong expecations that the object would move (because they
    > were pulling it with a string) and our experiences have to match in a single
    > reality, and yes, my investigation into history will show that they indeed
    > tied a string to the object and pulled it, then my expectation will be
    > overridden.
    > Now, my investigatin into history could show that the object moved on its
    > own, but I'd be taken as a loon by everyone else, who wouldn't believe me.
    >> You seem to be using the word in an unusual way (e.g. when I say "cat" what
    >> I really mean is "dog.")
    > When I say expectation, I mean both the rightness of realizing that
    > expectation, and the probability that the expectation will be realized. The
    > same meanings as the words "should", "suppose", and the original meaning of
    > "moral", which used to refer to the mores of a culture. Also I think the RT
    > words are synonyms, the word "straight" means "continue in the expected
    > direction" and also "proper" or "truthfully", right means the expected
    > answer and also the good, usefull answer, etc. When Johnny was expected to
    > do his homework, it was the right thing to do, and also Johnny was going to
    > do his homework. Because this is what kids are expected to do. Perhaps
    > Johnny was brought up to become a delinquent, and no one expects him to do
    > his homework. Edwards referred to a "particular beauty" and a "general
    > beauty", as a way to describe how some things can be harmonious with reality
    > in a particular sense (Johnny being expected to be a delinquent because his
    > dad was a drunk and that's what we expect) but not in a general sense
    > (Johnny not being a good boy).
    > I wish you would stick to MOQ terms or relate your expectation to the MOQ
    > somehow. I suspect that "expectation" is a lot like the more MOQish term
    > "experience," and like "experience" it has the problem of presuposing an
    > experiencer and what is experienced. Or perhaps your expectation is another
    > term for static quality in which case I wish you would use the MOQ term that
    > we all understand.
    > Yes, it's alot like experience, but it is the thing that creates the
    > experience according to it. Yes, it's entirely based on static patterns, a
    > static pattern is nothing more than an expectation. I like the term
    > expectation for a lot of reasons. One, it makes people think about the
    > probability/rightness dual interdependent meaning, which is not thought
    > about enough. Why do patterns contniue? Because they should. Why should
    > they? Because they probably will.
    > I certainly use the term static quality, when it makes sense to use it, I
    > don't usually translate it to expectation. I sometimes find an aside where
    > I can slip in an expectation reference, which I do because it happens to
    > occur to me, and I think it may be an avenue to understanding me better than
    > a long post like this one. But if that causes a delete key respnse, then I
    > will refrain from doing that so much. I'll keep the Expectation=Morality
    > stuff to a few threads like this one that I started (and which was not about
    > expectation at all!), and maybe see if those AI guys want to play with me :(
    >> Perhaps you could take another crack at convincing me that expectation has
    >> something valuable to add to the MOQ. To be honest, I don't like it and
    >> tend to hit the delete button when I come across the term in you posts, but
    >> since after many months you're still pushing your usage of the term and if
    >> you're willing I want to try again to see if it has value.
    >> Thanks,
    >> Steve
    > Well, it's a good way to undersatnd patterns, I think. A pattern is what is
    > expected to be repeated. There is no pattern if it is not expected, the
    > moment of pattern recognition is realizing that you have an expectation.
    > And it then joins patterns to morality. I don't think the MoQ explains why
    > patterns are moral patterns, what is moral about them? When they are seen
    > as expectations, as "shoulds" and "supposed to"s, then suddenly the other
    > meaning of expectation comes out, and they become patterns of morality, not
    > merely patterns.
    > Thanks for giving it a try again. I do think it holds water.
    > Johnny

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