From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Mon Aug 18 2003 - 22:22:57 BST
Steve,
Chance / randomness are perhaps the wrong words - the oxymoron is a tough
one I may have to think about - though I'm not sure I said it was physical
pattern. Perhaps it's more to do with chaos and complex systems. A
determinate pattern, but pragmatically unpredictable in detail for all
intents and purposes. Essentially random, if not literally.
I don't object to the metaphor, merely to the ignoring that it is a
metaphor.
Without purpose ? - Sounds right.
Without value ? - With value only according to some intellectual pattern
like the MoQ.
Without meaning ? - With meaning only according to human metaphors
By chance ? - See above.
Interesting, this seems to imply a physical pattern is just an intellectual
pattern anyway.
What I'm beginning to think (and I'm thinking out loud here) is that
everything in the MoQ at any level is an intellectual pattern. The levels
simply reflect, the extent to which they are merely intellectual patterns
(at the top) or have become more deeply fixed in conventional or dead
metaphors, known as social (intellectual patterns shared by a society or
culture, but still widely recognised as patterns of belief and value held by
the members),
biological (intellectual patterns so deeply shared, and metaphors so dead,
that society has forgotten they are patterns of belief),
physical (ditto - the distinction from biological simply being the choice of
dead / alive metaphors).
Just a thought.
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Steve Peterson
Sent: 18 August 2003 16:01
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD Chance and natural selection
Hi Ian, Jonathan,
> Yes, chance is massively at work in the world...
Randomness is a Platypus in SOM. The MOQ has a place for it only as an
intellectual pattern of value that presupposes an observer to infer a
pattern or the lack of one. It would be an oxymoron to call randomness an
inorganic pattern since randomness means the lack of a pattern so I don't
think you can say chance is "at work in the world."
>
> Steve, you said ...
> the MOQ says that evolution aims for quality.
>
> Ian says ...
> "aims" is metaphorical
> Neither MOQ nor Evolution can aim for anything literally.
Steve:
That goes without saying. The point is that Darwinian materialists object
to such metaphors and insist that to understand evolution we must see it as
without purpose, without value, without meaning, and by chance.
Thanks,
Steve
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