Re: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4

Date: Fri Aug 29 2003 - 18:08:43 BST

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    Did you say you were a business man? Its funny because its really
    common in my experience that when I meet somebody who is really
    interested in Maslow they are also into business.
    I agree with the MOQ and disagree with Maslow's theory.
    I see some relations, like they both have levels. Surface similarity
    to me.
    Too many great works from people who lower needs were not being met in
    my opinion.
    I heard Maslow's mother kept a lock on their fridge, maybe hunger was
    the inspiration of his ideas :-)

    I thought in Lila's child Pirsig explicitly states that he doesn't say
    whether you can skip a level or not. Maslow explicitly states that you
    As for Pirsig's model it seems less likely to me that a level can be
    skipped. Possible I guess, but can't think of any examples. But in
    Maslow's I know of way too many examples of lower levels not being met
    and even in people who are considered self-actualized (and Maslow put
    that as less then 5% of the population). Actually after reading
    Maslow's life I think he may have been one of those people. Therefore I
    don't believe his model is anywhere near as great as Pirsigs.


    Ian Glendinning wrote:

    >Maslow may indeed have thought "all behavior is determined", but I have
    >say when I say Maslow I mean the sum of all modern interpretations,
    >synthesis and extensions of his output, not an analysis of how
    misguided his
    >original thinking may have been, or whether he really used any credible
    >metaphysics of any kind. (This is leading us back to nature / nurture
    >evolutionary psychology again)
    >The discreteness of layers, whilst still being dependent, supporting
    >conflicting) of each other is common to both Pirsig and Maslow I
    >Although the level are discrete (in the sense of defining prototypical
    >aspects of each), that doesn't mean the boundaries don't get fuzzy
    >sometimes, as you move to the interfaces and away from the central
    >I used to worry about anthropomorphism too, particularly in the
    >use of active verbs like the examples you cite. Now however I feel it is
    >just human nature to do so in conceptual as well as linguistic
    >and provided we never forget these are metaphors I think the model is
    >workable. (It seems a truism that we can never have anything but a human
    >perspective on the world, how ever arrogant our metaphysics gets.
    Better to
    >know this than to ignore it - I say.)
    >How do I see the relation between "patterns of value" and "needs" ? To
    >honest I simply see a close parallel between the two frameworks - which
    >always leads me to suspect some underlying relation - more human nature
    >suspect / seek rationale. If I were a betting man, I'd say Pirsig was
    >fundamental (Foucault expresses a similar general philosophical
    >too IMHO), and that Maslow was just an outcome, a corollary or evidence
    >Pirsig's patterns of value at work in the world.
    >Ian Glendinning
    >-----Original Message-----
    >[]On Behalf Of Wim Nusselder
    >Sent: 28 August 2003 22:25
    >Subject: Re: MD economics of want and greed 4
    >Dear Ian,
    >I see the parallel now between Maslow and Pirsig. Maslow seems to apply
    >quite another metaphysics however (stating explicitly that all behavior
    >determined in the 1943 article I referred to).
    >Pirsig wrote ('Lila' ch. 12):
    >'This classification of patterns is not very original, but the
    >of Quality allows an assertion about them that is unusual. It says they
    >not continuous. They are discrete. They have very little to do with one
    >another. Although each higher level is built on a lower one it is not an
    >extension of that lower level. Quite the contrary. The higher level can
    >often be seen to be in opposition to the lower level, dominating it,
    >controlling it where possible for its own purposes.'
    >I don't particularly like the 'opposition', 'domination', 'controlling'
    >'purposes' sentence. It antropomorphizes the levels more than my
    >understanding of them allows.
    >Do you think Maslow's levels of needs are as discrete and discontinuous
    >Pirsig's levels? How do you see the relation between 'patterns of
    value' and
    >With friendly greetings,
    >----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
    >Van: "Ian Glendinning" <>
    >Aan: <>
    >Verzonden: donderdag 28 augustus 2003 20:00
    >Onderwerp: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
    >> You're right Wim, I did just latch onto one point that already
    >> me, rather than looking for what your point was. Sorry about
    >> should have changed the thread title.
    >> I'm surprised the parallel between Maslow and Pirsig isn't more
    obvious to
    >> more people. It smacked me right between the eyes the first time I read
    >> Pirsig.
    >> Satisfaction of basic physical / biological needs at the lowest level
    >> Satisfaction of social needs in the middle.
    >> Satisfaction of individual self-fulfillment / intellectual needs at the
    >> What I was trying to say is that there is a strong parallel, even if
    >> isn't a one to one mapping between specific levels, or any direct link
    >> betwen the two.
    >> (The evolutionary psychology bit is another story, as you say.)
    >> Ian Glendinning
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