From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Fri Aug 29 2003 - 19:28:21 BST
Hi all
Have any of you people linked Pirsig's levels
to those suggested by Arthur M Young in his Reflexive Universe?
Greed is often driven by fear. Fear is often the fear of dynamic
quality and the uncertainty it delivers. In the valueless present
we see too much of this negative side of dynamic quality, and fail
to embrace the possibility of positive activity. Greed is clinging to
static value patterns.
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: "ERIN NOONAN" <enoonan@kent.edu>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
> Did you say you were a business man? Its funny because its really
> common in my experience that when I meet somebody who is really
> interested in Maslow they are also into business.
> I agree with the MOQ and disagree with Maslow's theory.
> I see some relations, like they both have levels. Surface similarity
> to me.
> Too many great works from people who lower needs were not being met in
> my opinion.
> I heard Maslow's mother kept a lock on their fridge, maybe hunger was
> the inspiration of his ideas :-)
>
> I thought in Lila's child Pirsig explicitly states that he doesn't say
> whether you can skip a level or not. Maslow explicitly states that you
> can't.
> As for Pirsig's model it seems less likely to me that a level can be
> skipped. Possible I guess, but can't think of any examples. But in
> Maslow's I know of way too many examples of lower levels not being met
> and even in people who are considered self-actualized (and Maslow put
> that as less then 5% of the population). Actually after reading
> Maslow's life I think he may have been one of those people. Therefore I
> don't believe his model is anywhere near as great as Pirsigs.
>
> Erin
>
>
> Ian Glendinning wrote:
>
>
> >Wim,
> >
> >Maslow may indeed have thought "all behavior is determined", but I have
> to
> >say when I say Maslow I mean the sum of all modern interpretations,
> >synthesis and extensions of his output, not an analysis of how
> misguided his
> >original thinking may have been, or whether he really used any credible
> >metaphysics of any kind. (This is leading us back to nature / nurture
> and
> >evolutionary psychology again)
> >
> >The discreteness of layers, whilst still being dependent, supporting
> (even
> >conflicting) of each other is common to both Pirsig and Maslow I
> believe.
> >Although the level are discrete (in the sense of defining prototypical
> >aspects of each), that doesn't mean the boundaries don't get fuzzy
> >sometimes, as you move to the interfaces and away from the central
> >prototypes
> >
> >I used to worry about anthropomorphism too, particularly in the
> metaphorical
> >use of active verbs like the examples you cite. Now however I feel it is
> >just human nature to do so in conceptual as well as linguistic
> metaphors,
> >and provided we never forget these are metaphors I think the model is
> >workable. (It seems a truism that we can never have anything but a human
> >perspective on the world, how ever arrogant our metaphysics gets.
> Better to
> >know this than to ignore it - I say.)
> >
> >How do I see the relation between "patterns of value" and "needs" ? To
> be
> >honest I simply see a close parallel between the two frameworks - which
> >always leads me to suspect some underlying relation - more human nature
> to
> >suspect / seek rationale. If I were a betting man, I'd say Pirsig was
> more
> >fundamental (Foucault expresses a similar general philosophical
> framework
> >too IMHO), and that Maslow was just an outcome, a corollary or evidence
> of
> >Pirsig's patterns of value at work in the world.
> >
> >Ian Glendinning
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> >[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Wim Nusselder
> >Sent: 28 August 2003 22:25
> >To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> >Subject: Re: MD economics of want and greed 4
> >
> >
> >Dear Ian,
> >
> >I see the parallel now between Maslow and Pirsig. Maslow seems to apply
> >quite another metaphysics however (stating explicitly that all behavior
> is
> >determined in the 1943 article I referred to).
> >
> >Pirsig wrote ('Lila' ch. 12):
> >'This classification of patterns is not very original, but the
> Metaphysics
> >of Quality allows an assertion about them that is unusual. It says they
> are
> >not continuous. They are discrete. They have very little to do with one
> >another. Although each higher level is built on a lower one it is not an
> >extension of that lower level. Quite the contrary. The higher level can
> >often be seen to be in opposition to the lower level, dominating it,
> >controlling it where possible for its own purposes.'
> >
> >I don't particularly like the 'opposition', 'domination', 'controlling'
> and
> >'purposes' sentence. It antropomorphizes the levels more than my
> >understanding of them allows.
> >Do you think Maslow's levels of needs are as discrete and discontinuous
> as
> >Pirsig's levels? How do you see the relation between 'patterns of
> value' and
> >'needs'?
> >
> >With friendly greetings,
> >
> >Wim
> >
> >----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> >Van: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
> >Aan: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> >Verzonden: donderdag 28 augustus 2003 20:00
> >Onderwerp: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
> >
> >
> >> You're right Wim, I did just latch onto one point that already
> interested
> >> me, rather than looking for what your point was. Sorry about
> that,perhaps
> >I
> >> should have changed the thread title.
> >>
> >> I'm surprised the parallel between Maslow and Pirsig isn't more
> obvious to
> >> more people. It smacked me right between the eyes the first time I read
> >> Pirsig.
> >>
> >> Satisfaction of basic physical / biological needs at the lowest level
> >> Satisfaction of social needs in the middle.
> >> Satisfaction of individual self-fulfillment / intellectual needs at the
> >top.
> >>
> >> What I was trying to say is that there is a strong parallel, even if
> there
> >> isn't a one to one mapping between specific levels, or any direct link
> >> betwen the two.
> >>
> >> (The evolutionary psychology bit is another story, as you say.)
> >>
> >> Ian Glendinning
> >
> >
> >
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