Re: MD What is a person?

From: Nathan Pila (pila@sympatico.ca)
Date: Sun Oct 19 2003 - 17:46:33 BST

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    Johnny,

    Well, first of all, I should admit that I am only currently reading 'Zen and
    the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance' and half way through and so am clearly
    out of my depth. With your permission, I will finish the book and then be
    able to participate in a dialogue with you.

    What you say is fascinating and it is only if I get to the starting gate
    with the 'Art...' book read that I'll be able to keep up my end of the
    conversation. So, I'll finish the book and if you are still up to speaking
    to an novice, we'll get a conversation going. OK?

    On another matter, I notice that my email to you appeared numerous times.
    That is not because I sent it again and again, but rather that my server,
    Sympatico is having problems with the email service.

    Nathan

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "johnny moral" <johnnymoral@hotmail.com>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 1:50 PM
    Subject: Re: MD What is a person?

    > >Johnny Moral,
    > >
    > >I want to believe you but can't seem to get my head around what you are
    > >saying. Neurologist, with the new technology (CAT, MRI etc)are getting
    > >insights into the functioning of the brain and it seems that
    consciousness
    > >is a result of different parts harmonizing and producing the sensation we
    > >call consciousness. I know this is not what you are saying and maybe the
    > >stuff I'm reading is incorrect. But I am glad you took the trouble to
    write
    > >me.
    > >
    > >This concept of consciousness is so intriguing. Would you like me to
    quote
    > >you some sources that I have found which give me pause?
    > >
    > >Nathan
    >
    > It isn't wrong to have a materialist view of the world, the MoQ does not
    > deny that things exist, that science can discover real things deeper and
    > deeper into the mystery. It just says that things are ideas, ideas that
    fit
    > into existing quality, and though he may not say it anywhere, I think it
    > implies that nothing would exist without humans existing also, the birth
    of
    > the universe happened with the dawn of man. But that's not a high quality
    > idea, it is higher quality to see a 14 billion year old universe because
    it
    > fits in with other ideas better.
    >
    > You've read the Pirsig books, right? In Zen, he describes the basic
    > ontological function of quality: a quality "event" happens (he may not use
    > that word, but we seem to use it here) which simultaneously produces the
    > subject and object. In other words, "hot" happens, and that creates a
    > person sitting on a hot stove. Of course the hot stove and the person
    > existed already in historical, static quality, just like our nuerons do,
    and
    > just like the instruments that look into the brain do. But they "exist"
    as
    > patterns of value, as an idea of something expected to carry on existing,
    > just like the value of the hot stove will continue into the future. The
    > ideas that quality creates come from quality, and fit with historical
    > quality according to some very basic primary ideas, such as the world is a
    > continuous, reasonable place where things happen for a reason.
    >
    > hope that makes a little ounce of sense, i haven't had coffee yet.
    >
    > Sure, put up some quotes about consciousness, we'll see how they fit into
    > the MoQ's framework.
    >
    > johnny
    >
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