From: Matt poot (mattpoot@hotmail.com)
Date: Sun Feb 01 2004 - 22:09:53 GMT
I think, therefor I am Matt....?
I would enjoy if people learned about Sensory Deprivation. I think that it
could ....*no word* ...help you think better.
http://kwiclan.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=41&highlight<br>
N
Tom:>Pirsig himself talks of language determinism in LILA, and specifically
>mentions Edward Saphir. The Saphir-Whorf theory (Lee Whorf also contributed
>towards
>it), is that our thoughts are determined by our language. It would then
>stand
>to reason that:
>
>a) Without language we would have little to no thought activity
>b) The language we learn determines our thought to some extent (this is
>shown
>in the examples Pirsig uses of Eskimos/Snow, Hopis/Time)
>c) The language we employ to explain ourselves affects how well we are
>received.
Matt: Now, in ZAMM, Pirsig speaks concerning when in Greek times, our
current Mythos was 'put in place' as foundation. Im not sure, but I think
he then talks about the placement of this mythos as common belief as being
necessary for moving on to the next step? which would be awareness of
quality, etc.
I think that words have been beneficial to a point, serving great purpose in
science, and philosophy. I also think that we should not abandon words
wholly. Just not use them as the main form of communication. If we were to
be able to discuss in feeling and thought, rather than in word, progress
towards enlightenment would be made so much incredibly better, not
necessarily faster, but better.
Words just bring misunderstaning. In different situations , words have
multiple meanings, and even though many of these are commonly understood by
many people, it is only because of that feeling associated with it. We
cant even be sure our understanding of someone elses words is accurate to a
point to really catch what they are trying to say.
Tom: On the flip side of this we have the theory that our language is
determined
>by our thoughts, which is a more common-sense theory.
>
>Linguists nowadays believe there to be a mix between the two (sometimes
>called weak determinism).
Poot: I would agree to this somewhat, skepticallY, and not whollY.
Tom: It could just be that sometimes we have thoughts for
>which we have no lexical representation, _______ or words for which we have
>no thoughts.________
Poot: Did you mean thoughts for which we have no words? Or it could be the
use of nouns, which I think is the primary function of a language. These
would be the hardest to describe or to communicate by feeling.
Tom:.......people think in pictures, and you suggest pure
>unadulterated concepts.
Poot:I wouldnt say that people think in pictures all the time. However we
do think with them very often.
Tom: Is this 'pre-thought' an innate sense of Quality? Well, I
>would say that that's highly subjective, but...
Poot: I would say that the pre-thought is an innate sense, directing us
towards quality, but it is our concious thought, influenced by "morals" and
"ethics" then make our minds choose to overwhelm the prethought, smothering
them with "Proper" and "right". I would use the feeling of sexual desire in
our society as an example. We look at someone who is attractive, and have
the wish to...fornicate...but, our "moral code" would say that this
behaviour is devious. Often, 2 persons who are attracted to each other ,
sexually, cannot just have sex, be it once, or a few times, or many,and then
let it be at that, with no feeling for the need of it to be anything more.
Now, I will say, that in many more liberal people, this does not exist so
stringently, and things are changing(as they always are).
Keep on discussing Tom....interesting.
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