Re: MD SOLAQI as Greeks bearing gifts

From: David MOREY (
Date: Thu Feb 05 2004 - 20:07:51 GMT

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    Hi Bo

    I find the fall and rise mythos useful
    in many schemes of analysis. Cosmologically
    I assume that the ultimate beginining is some
    kind of whole/Onesness/Nothingness. The creation
    of finite existence is a sort of fall into materiality, more and more
    SQ until we reach complex molecules all their association with
    deterministic causality. From there thinks march upwards again to
    greater wholeness and more DQ and less SQ. Within the human
    level I see SO divide as a retracing of this cosmic story, dividing
    whole quality experience into a SO divide where we discover objects as
    causally determined and utterly other to our subjectivity. From this
    alienated position we can try putting things back together again so we
    go both beyond the SO divide and return to a pre-alienated and more
    holistic conception, an example of which is MOQ. See Arthur M Young's
    Reflexive Universe for a larger version of this scheme. Young suggest a
    number of falling (into SQ) levels of the inorganic before you hit
    the DQ driven levels (rising) of the organic: plants/animals/man.

    David M
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: <>
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    Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:41 AM
    Subject: RE: MD SOLAQI as Greeks bearing gifts

    > Mati, Paul, ALL.
    > 30 Jan. Mati said:
    > > Some time ago I brought up this issue with Bo. Basically I think that
    > > opportunities for the "potential" S/O split surely existed before
    > > Aristotle. I will use the analogy of cut wood. This morning as I was
    > > stoking the stove and noted a 4 inch round piece of maple that had
    > > dried and had a clear crack that traversed along the entire log, but
    > > even with this crack the log wasn't split. I am guess with a light
    > > swing of my ax it would be ripe to come apart.
    > I remember Mati's cracked log simile, but the thing I wish to raise
    > is this tendency to make the S/O divide sound like a FAULT
    > rather than the value it is supposed to be. It has begun to intrigue
    > me.
    > An aside: The SOLAQI isn't an issue here, regardless how one
    > views the SOM - as intellect itself or as one intellectual pattern - it
    > is supposed to be of a higher quality level than the social.
    > > I see the S/O divide in a similar fashion. Pirsig even points out that
    > > it is hard to pin point exactly where the S/O divide takes place. I
    > > believe we can clearly see it with Aristotle. Other areas we clearly
    > > see the crack but we don't see the full split. I did look it up and
    > > Protagoras was around 500.bc. that puts in the realm with Thales,
    > > Anaximander, Anaximenes, and others, which were the precursor I am
    > > sure to Aristotle S/O split.
    > Total agreement with this, but again, why is SOM (as an
    > intellectual development) considered a decline compared to the
    > social level it sprang from. This is the MOQ version but there are
    > many thinkers who have postulated some major shift around this
    > time, and invariably it is presented as a "fall". Due to Scott we
    > know about Barfield's "participation" stages, but there are others,
    > not least the mother of them all, the Biblical "Fall from Grace".
    > But back to the MOQ - where the higher level is supposed to be
    > the better - the social-intellectual shift is presented as a let-down.
    > Socrates & Co. are the villains while the Sophists are the heroes.
    > In LILA Pirsig rails against intellect for trying to hide its social
    > origins, for thwarting society's job of keeping biological forces at
    > bay and thereby creating social chaos.
    > Why is this? Big question, maybe better reserved for a Focus
    > debate, but inputs are welcome.
    > Sincerely Bo
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