From: Steve Peterson (peterson.steve@verizon.net)
Date: Tue Apr 27 2004 - 23:57:26 BST
Hi Platt,
>>> P:
>>>>> The
>>>>> intellectual level is dominated by individuals who value the
>>>>> patterns of
>>>>> their independent thoughts more than unthinking conformity to
>>>>> social
>>>>> patterns. That's another reason why I think a better name for the
>>>>> intellectual level would be the Individual Level.
>>>
>>> S:
>>>> The intellectual level is not dominated by individuals since
>>>> individuals are identified or defined by the patterns that they
>>>> participate in. (Lila doesn't have Quality. Quality has Lila.)
>>>
>>> Let's be clear that when I refer to individuals I'm talking about
>>> human
>>> beings, not parts of wholes. Both the social and intellectual
>>> levels, the
>>> subjective realms, consist of human beings, all of whom are made up
>>> of
>>> the four levels plus the capacity to respond to DQ.
>>
>> I'm lost. You are saying that the social and intellectual levels
>> consists of human beings which consist of the social and intellectual
>> levels?
>
> Right. Without human beings there would be no social and intellectual
> levels.
I don't see how I could be right. My intention was to point out a
logical impossibility. A can't contain B while B contains A.
>>>> However, the intellectual level is built on the social level as
>>>> every
>>>> level is built upon the levels below, but to call the intellectual
>>>> level
>>>> the individual level since it is built on individual human beings
>>>> would
>>>> be like calling the social level the animal level since it is built
>>>> upon
>>>> animals (homo sapiens) and calling the biological level the
>>>> molecular
>>>> level since it built on molecules.
>>>
>>> The reason to call it the individual level is as I've described--a
>>> level
>>> dominated by individuals who value the patterns of their independent
>>> thoughts more than unthinking conformity to social patterns.
>>
>> Did you not follow my objection above or did you just not want to
>> respond to it? There's never any obligation to answer, of course.
>
> I thought I had responded by making it clear the social level consists
> of
> human beings, not animals as you claim. Animals belong exclusively to
> the
> biological level. If as a human being you act like an animal, you
> should be
> treated as such. That's what social level police and soldiers do.
You're not following the analogy, then. You claim that the 4th level
is built upon social level individual human beings and should then be
called the individual level. I'm saying that would be like calling the
social level the animal level since it is based on animals of the
species homo sapiens. (Oh, forget it. See below.)
>>> I think it's a fundamental error to disconnect humans from thoughts,
>>> just
>>> as it's wrong to disconnect humans from the social and intellectual
>>> levels. It's abstract thinking without regard for human individuals
>>> that
>>> accounts for the slaughter of millions by totalitarian governments.
>>
>> You are arguing that what I say is false because of what you think
>> are the
>> social consequences of what I'm saying. Also, I still don't
>> understand why
>> you think I am disconnecting humans from thoughts. I'm just saying
>> that
>> humans aren't thoughts and thoughts aren't humans. Isn't that right,
>> or are
>> we arguing the issue of whether humans have thoughts or thoughts have
>> humans?
>
> I think we're arguing in circles, each trying to convince the other but
> getting nowhere fast. I assume we're both right from different
> perspectives. Time to quit?
>
Fair enough. I was also thinking that this is just getting frustrating.
Thanks,
Steve
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