Glenn and MFs
Glenn wrote
>Well, I don't know about 'contentious', but I'm not convinced the "MOQ is an
>intellectual description of this mystical insight". After all, the insight is
>that a large part of American values come from Indians. This seems pretty far
>afield from the MOQ. If the insight had been to split reality into SQ and DQ,
>I'd be more enthusiastic about your idea.
This is what I was trying to say in my last post. I think.
Later Pirsig says DQ is associated with religious mysticism, which
is something obviously not restricted to American Indians. In fact
Europeans have their own traditions of mysticism which stretch
back before they had any contact with Indians. Maybe the idea of equality
was new. But that's an intellectual idea. If it's intrinsic to mysticism
why is is only in Indian culture?
>In fact this particular insight does not strike me as all that mystical, either.
>I'm not arguing that the peyote didn't help bring on the insight, but having it
>under these circumstances does not make it mystical. The insight could have come
>to him while smoking a cigarette or taking a shower, and then no one would be
>calling it mystical.
Right again. It's just something he figured out. Sidis hit on the same idea.
>The card catalog "represents the building of his metaphysics", but the thousand
>or so cards that grew out of the peyote experience were for a book about Indians
>centered on this insight, not one about MOQ nor even necessarily quality. He
>abandons this as the central theme, but decides to tell us about it anyway
>because a) he thinks it was a cool insight! and b) it leads into the discussion
>later about the problems with anthropology and SOM and sets up his MOQ nicely.
And I wonder if "a" wasn't the strongest reason. Chapter 3 seems a bit
fudged. The clash between European and Indian values sounds more
like a social-intellectual clash to me.
>You seem to be building a thesis that MOQ had mystic origins and mysticism is at
>the root of Pirsig's beliefs. He tries but I think he is essentially a rational
>fellow. I don't think the peyote experience changed him as profoundly as you
>suggest. Don't you think a person searching for vision quests would alter his
>consciousness (with drugs or meditation) regularly? But we just hear about this
>one episode. Perhaps going insane is mind altering enough for one lifetime.
Actually I believe Pirsig does, or did, practise meditation regularly. He even founded
a Zen center in his home town. I have a letter from him where he mentioned
it but can't seem to find it. Anyway I do recall that in response to my question,
"do you meditate regularly?" he told me that he had founded that center and imported
a Zen master from Japan for it, but that he didn't sit in za zen everyday any more.
... which I suppose means that at one time he did.
Diana
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
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