DMB and all Mystical Moffers,
> Today I'd like to take issue with some things Marco said. Roughly
speaking,
> he's asserted that Dusenberry, and not peyote, was responsible for
Pirsig's
> mystical vision. Diana has already objected saying, "..it can't be ignored
> that a drug was used". And I think that's exactly right. You can't ignore
> what's on the pages of those first three chapters! That's the whole idea
> behind this re-reading project. I think we need an extra dose of
open-minded
> intellectual honesty to examine this issue because there is a tremendous
> prejudice against both drugs and mysticism in our culture. I'm pretty
> convinced that we'll really hear what Pirsig is saying ONLY if we're
willing
> to suspend those prejudices. Empty cups!
Prejudices... maybe your prejudice is to think that I've prejudices.... I've
no prejudices about drugs... I'm a convinced supporter of the abolition of
any drug prohibition!
My assertion is not that "Dusenberry was responsible for Pirsig's mystical
vision" but that Pirsig's mind was ready for new experiences. And he found
in Dusenberry something that the other professors were not able to find.
The point is that I can't support the idea that Peyote is a necessary
precondition of mysticism and DQ. We had a lot of mystics in Europe and
surely they didn't use Peyote... maybe something else, of course. But it's
possible to run 100 meters in 9 seconds with or without doping... Peyote can
help you to have mystical visions, to "empty your spaces (tks Andrew)" if
you are not a mystic... but I believe that there are infinite ways to DQ.
My idea is that Phaedrus had already a space for DQ in his mind: that's why
he follows Dusenberry, that's why he eats Peyote. He is SEARCHING. Then
chatting with Dusenberry, looking to Indians through the fire, hearing
tribal chants, remembering "wild wild west" movies, eating Peyote,
abandoning
himself to the WHOLE experience.... he filled that empty space with DQ.
You can't take Peyote away from that WHOLE experience. Peyote is part of the
ceremony. Fire is part of the ceremony. An empty mind is part of the
ceremony.
Do you remember ZAMM?
<<<>>>
After a while he says, ``Do you believe in ghosts?''
``No,'' I say
``Why not?''
``Because they are un-sci-en-ti-fic.''
[...]
``One of the kids at YMCA camp says he believes in ghosts.''
[...]
``What's his name?'' Sylvia says.
``Tom White Bear.''
John and I exchange looks, suddenly recognizing the same thing.
``Ohhh, Indian!'' he says.
I laugh. ``I guess I'm going to have to take that back a little,'' I say.
``I was thinking of European ghosts.''
``What's the difference?''
[...]
I think a little and say, ``Well, Indians sometimes have a different way of
looking at things, which I'm not saying is completely wrong. Science isn't
part of the Indian tradition.''
[...]
``Sure,'' I say, reversing myself, ``I believe in ghosts too.''
[...]
``My own opinion is that the intellect of modern man isn't that superior.
IQs aren't that much different. Those Indians and medieval men were just as
intelligent as we are, but the context in which they thought was completely
different. Within that context of thought, ghosts and spirits are quite as
real as atoms, particles, photons and quants are to a modern man. In that
sense I believe in ghosts. Modern man has his ghosts and spirits too, you
know.''
<<<>>>
Indian ghosts are not scientific, so they don't exist... in our
Western/European culture. That's the point ... our respective cultures are
different. Peyote is Indian. Wine is European. Opium is oriental... and so
on. Every mess is usually dangerous.
A great point of Lila is that the idea of freedom has been imported in
Europe by Indians... I think it's true only in part. 2000 years ago a guy
called Jesus (really a mystic guy, even without Peyote, I guess) tried to
say we are all brothers and equals and was killed. But someone believed him
(I'm not talking about the "official" church, of course...) and the idea
went on. After 1700 years Indians gave us the example that IT WAS POSSIBLE!
Here in Europe we had forgot it was possible since thousands years. But
saying that Peyote preconditioned the idea of freedom is too much. I think
more simply that our social level was very developed and that Europe was
needing something new to go out from the way-to-nowhere of continual wars.
At the contrary Indian social level was not so developed to organize people
so much to take them away their natural freedom.
Indian freedom was a sort of "Freedom BEFORE social level". Our modern idea
of freedom is "Freedom AFTER social level".
thanks for Your attention.
Marco.
<<>>
"Empty is Dynamic space and full is static space."
(Andrew Bowen)
<<>>
MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:03:19 BST