Re: MF Discussion Topic for January 2004

Date: Thu Jan 08 2004 - 19:59:08 GMT

  • Next message: Wim Nusselder: "Re: MF Discussion Topic for January 2004"

    Hey Mark and all,

    In response to Mark's request for textual context, I would offer the

    PIRSIG (SODV--- discussing his MoQ diagram):
    "In the third box are the biological patterns: senses of touch, sight
    hearing, smell and taste. The Metaphysics of Quality follows
    the empirical tradition here in saying that the senses are the starting
    point of reality, but -- all importantly -- it includes a
    sense of value. Values are phenomena. To ignore them is to misread the
    world. It says this sense of value, of liking or disliking,
    is a primary sense that is a kind of gatekeeper for everything else an
    infant learns. At birth this sense of value is extremely
    Dynamic but as the infant grows up this sense of value becomes more and more
    influenced by accumulated static patterns. In the past
    this biological sense of value has been called the "subjective" because
    there values cannot be located in an external physical
    object. But quantum theory has destroyed the idea that only properties
    located in external physical objects have reality."

    This quote is typical of a thread that runs throughout out Pirsig's thoughts
    in LILA and on the MoQ in general. Pirsig often makes reference to a 'sense
    of betterness' (like with the Brujo) or a 'sense of quality' (like with
    Lila). Now, I am not qualified to pronounce on whether quantum theory has
    destroyed the idea that only properties located in external physical objects
    have reality, but my own 'sense of quality' tells me that there is something
    weird about the idea presented above. Unfortunately, I'm a little pressed
    for time tonight, but on Saturday I will send a post detailing my problems
    with the above.

    take care

    Thank you Rick,
    This makes your original question more clear to me.
    May i draw your attention to diagram 2 in The edge of Chaos (TEOC) please?
    There, you will see the event stream, or DQ, radiating a coherent 'cloud' of
    static patterns. The first patterns in the stream are Intellectual
    patterns -
    and this is intended to indicate that the whole MoQ is an intellectual
    description of value. (Quantum theory is an abstract intellectual
    description of
    reality.) Coherence is exceptionally important here, because coherence is
    pre-intellectual harmony of artistic and creative expression - even Quantum
    must have its elegant aspect, or it would be viewed as unworthy.
    But these intellectual patterns have evolved in a relationship with
    intellectually postulated lower levels of value - and our empirical
    apparatus is
    postulated as being rooted at these lower levels.

    Now it may be interesting to note that Buddhists view Humans as having 6
    senses; the 6th being what we in the West would, in the 21st century, rather
    confusingly determine, 'Mind.'
    But the diagram 2 in TEOC aims to show that there is no mind as such, or
    indeed Subjects and Objects in the MoQ, rather, there are evolutionary
    patterns of Quality emerging from nothingness, in a coherent move towards
    nothingness. (Artistic creativity in all Human fields of activity -
    social and intellectual abandons a sense of self.)

    My suggestion is that we abandon out Western cultural baggage and embrace a
    new and better description of experience. Perhaps your sense of 'weirdness'
    a helpful sign that you are freeing yourself from old modes of thought?
    I do hope so?

    All the best,

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