From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Mon Jul 05 2004 - 02:08:55 BST
Mark 5-7-04: Dear Focus group, July 2004 Topic:
From LILA Chapter 24:
"The end of the twentieth century in America seems to be an intellectual,
social and economic rust-belt, a whole society that has given up on Dynamic
improvement and is slowly trying to slip back to Victorianism, the last
static ratchet-latch."
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-- -------------------------- Mark 5-7-04: Here are the assertions: A. Important social change: spread of the internet. B. Important economic event: stock-market bubble. C. Important scientific/intellectual advances: computer technology, genetics, chaos theory, quantum physics. Here are the questions: 1. Is it still fair to say that its end was an "intellectual, social and economic rustbelt"? 2. What sort of intellectual, social and economic 'advances' could have prevented the rusting? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -------------------------- dmb 4-7-04: (Its worth noting that the quote's main analogy, the "rustbelt", alludes to the economic decay of America's large industrial cities.) Mark 5-7-04: I am not sure dmb is correct here. Pirsig says, "a whole society" so i assume he means the whole of US society and not merely it's industrial centres; industrial centres are not known for their intellectual Quality, but Universities should be. dmb 4-7-04: The old biological morality describes gangs, murderers, pimps and the like, not the neo conservative architects of American foreign policy. I'm no fan of the current administration, but describing their behavior as "pre-historic brigandage" is too much even for me. Mark 5-7-04: Noam Chomsky's, 'Deterring democracy' (DD) indicates consecutive US administrations knowingly support and actively encourage forces which undermine democracy in their client states with biological force the likes of which the phrase, "prehistoric brigandage" merely conveys lightly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -------------------------- dmb provides additional Lila: "The MOQ suggests that the social chaos of the 20th century can be relieved by going back to this point of departure and re-evaluating the path taken from it. It says it is immoral for intellect to be dominated by society for the same reasons it is immoral for children to be dominated by their parents. But that doesn't mean that children should assassinate their parents, and it doesn't mean intellectuals should assassinate society. Intellect can support static patterns of society without fear of domination by carefully distinguishing those moral issues that are social-biological from those that are intellectual-social and making sure there is no encroachment either way." dmb 4-7-04: The dynamic revolutions failed because of a fatal flaw in the intellect and the quote above tells us how to address that problem. Mark 5-7-04: The topic quote says, 'Dynamic improvement.' dmb 4-7-04: In practical terms, I think that the fundamentalists and other reactionaries will loose most of their anger and energy when their values are finally recognized and honored for what the are by intellectuals. Mark 5-7-04: I shall assume, 'Fundamentalists and reactionaries' describe dominant US social patterns of value. These patterns are foremost representatives of slippage back to social domination of intellectual patterns. They are powerful and winning, as Noam Chomsky's analysis of US intellectual culture indicates in DD. Symptoms of the severity of social dominance of intellectual patterns given by Chomsky are the changes in accepted meanings of terms such as 'democracy' and 'socialist.' dmb provides us with an additional example of his own, without the slightest hint of irony. dmb 4-7-04: I mean, traditonal values feel that they are under attack because they are. Mark 5-7-04: I do not understand what dmb means by 'traditional values.' Traditional US values have been, for the last 100 years, the social patterns which dictate: 'obliterate anyone and anything which threatens the right of natural aristocrats to fulfil their manifest destiny.' dmb 4-7-04: This doesn't mean they derserve to be put back in charge of guiding society, Mark 5-7-04: Those patterns guiding society have never left the saddle. dmb appears to feel otherwise. dmb 4-7-04: but an intellectual system that denies social values altogether only ends up committing sabotage upon itself. Mark 5-7-04: Those guiding society have never been intellectuals - they are socially dominated, and have arguably used fear and the suppression of information (biological values) to control the masses. dmb 4-7-04: This is what happened already and repeated attempts, without change in this regard, are doomed to repeated failure. Mark 5-7-04: How many US presidents have had PhD's in the Humanities or hard sciences? How many US presidents have never authorised military action at some point in their term of office? dmb fails to recognise how and where power lies in the US. Intellectual challenges to social domination emerge from Intellectual institutions and publications; as such they have no intrinsic power or influence without social approval. dmb: We MUST have and intellectual system with some heart and soul, one that recognizes the validity of morality and spirituality as such. Mark 5-7-04: When dmb uses the term, 'Spirituality' he does so as prescribed in the books of Ken Wilber - that is to say, transpersonal psychology. Therefore, dmb is saying: "We MUST have an intellectual system that recognises transpersonal psychology." dmb has turned this topic into yet another advertising campaign for Ken Wilber, the "cartographer of all systems, all levels." It may be further argued that a society which intellectually systematises within it transpersonal psychology is by example an intellectual rust-belt. Now to move on to rick's questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -------------------------- Here are the assertions: A. Important social change: spread of the internet. Mark 5-7-04: The internet has valuable implications for the reinforcement of true democracy as an intellectual pattern of value. These patterns have emerged strongly since Lila. This provides hope for the future, but does not affect the topic quote. B. Important economic events: stock-market bubble. Mark 5-7-04: The US economy is in the service of military growth at the expense of democratic ideals (social dominance of intellectual patterns). The internet may help change this as it provides a Dynamic free flow of information outside static socially patterned governmental control. C. Important scientific/intellectual advances in computer technology, genetics, chaos theory, quantum physics. Mark 5-7-04: These patterns of intellectual value are beginning to recognise the demise of SOM - especially chaos and quantum theories, and the quantum applications in computers. (All computers are in fact quantum devices.) The MOQ suggests these realisations may be applied to social patterns also. The Internet is one emerging social coherence. (chaos and quantum theories emphasise and value coherent states - see, 'The edge of chaos' for an enquiry into coherence and the MOQ). Genetics may lead to the control of some very unpleasant diseases and will hopefully provide control to all. Here are the questions: 1. Is it still fair to say that its end was an "intellectual, social and economic rustbelt"? Mark 5-7-04: Yes. The future is in the balance, but this is one of the reasons why we turn up to this site week in and week out. There is every reason to be optimistic about a coherent future for us all. 2. What sort of intellectual, social and economic 'advances' could have prevented the rusting? Mark 5-7-04: An increase in Quality via the application of true democratic ideals based on openness and equality for all. All the best, Mark MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_focus/ MF Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net To unsubscribe from moq_focus follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/mf/subscribe.html
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